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Sugah's Place

Providing quality Sims 2 downloads, social discussions, group projects, original challenges & forum games in a friendly, fun atmosphere.
 
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Sugah's Place is proud to be one of the last remaining Sims sites devoted entirely to Sims 2. The Ladies of SP welcome you and thank you for being here with us. * See what's NEW by clicking on THIS LINK ...We try to update regularly, so check back often! Follow us on Facebook, Pinterest and 'Tweet' yourself to a little Sugah!! ... Stop by, introduce yourself, play some forum games and schmooze a bit. We're happy to have you.

 

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Hobbes
Pierre
Dentelle
bdhfsbp23
CallyDreaming
Caleb_71
mustluvcatz
Travellerp
Meilyn
CajsaN
SimEm
clc
autumnelle
tinhouse
Hunter
deekitty31
andrewplay599
LabCat
Ullwera
Angelsways1
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autumnelle

autumnelle


Age : 47

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2009 10:27 pm

Ed, where did the rug come from? Is it one of your recolours? Love the color scheme, by the way.

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 133298
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2009 11:38 pm

Quote :
The painting that's above the bed, I gotta see if I can find a male instead of a female. You know.....

I've been looking around for you, dahling, and can not seem to find any drawing/sketch-like horizontal paintings that would fit that mesh perfectly.

I DID find a piece of art I like quite a bit that might work, with your approval...but it might not be what you're going for.

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 MaleNude

If not, I shall keep looking, dearheart. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 711747
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CajsaN

CajsaN


Age : 38

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 6:56 am

Thanks for the comments! :)
I'm also very happy how they turned out.

Now Ringlan and Vincent have two children (one toddler and one baby). When the second baby was born I was really surpriced, she had really green eyes and I couldn't understand where she had gotten them from. But then I remembered. My husband had just downloaded replacement colors for the defult eyecolors and Vincent used to be a NPC with defult green eyes, but I had used grey fake eyes (make up) over them. So now I have removed his fake grey eyes and he's got green eyes. I'll show pics later :)

(sorry about my bad english)
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Guest
Guest




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PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 7:03 am

WOW!

That's great, Sugah.

For that painting, she used That Place Over There from the base game.

Elle, that a recolor of the Fogerton Bedroom Rug.
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autumnelle

autumnelle


Age : 47

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 7:39 am

Is it available for download? I did not see it on your site.
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Guest




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PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 8:01 am

I'm sorry, misunderstood.

I recolored nothing in that bedroom. Sharon/TinHouse did.

But, here's the links you'll need.

Fogerton Bedroom

Sharon/TinHouse Recolor
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autumnelle

autumnelle


Age : 47

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 1:18 pm

Thank you kindly, sir. I love you
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Guest




Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 1:33 pm

You're welcome!
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: HELP!!!   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 3:47 pm

Okay, I have a new problem. When I convert residential lots to apartmentbase lots, I do not get a community/apt mailbox.
I've done a few searches, but the site that was recommended to go to for a AL replacement mailbox is no more.
Anyone ever had this problem?
Per Andy's recommendation, I pulled out the two game hacks I had ... went in ... converted the duplex back to residential ... exited ... then reconverted to apartmentbase again, exited and STILL no community/apt mailbox. (Thanks for that, btw, Andy!)

I'm open for any and all assistance from those of you who play with Apartment Life. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 761338

Here's a pic. As you can see by the rotating green apt symbol, it IS an apartment.
However, look at the mailbox...STILL a regular lot one.

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 NoApartmentMailbox
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andrewplay599

andrewplay599



Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 6:01 pm

Here is the link for the mailbox Link.
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 8:07 pm

You know, I actually found that dang site earlier today and can not figure out for the life of me, where the hell the actual download in that thread is!!!

Anyhoo, I figured out my problem, Andy. A few lots I've downloaded have had replacement mailboxes, unbeknownst to me.
When I tried to delete them from the game, because they had infiltrated ALL the mailboxes (including community ones), all mailboxes then disappeared!

So, I simply uninstalled and reinstalled Apartment Life. I kept my downloads folder (after deleting the culprit, mind you) and just put it back in my EA folder
so I wouldn't have to redownload the little I've got in this puter.
So far, so good. I double checked the game and it appears that all mailboxes are back where and how they should be.

Now, I just need to build an apartment and do a conversion (I lost my duplexes and trailer park, unfortunately) to see if the community/apt mailbox shows up as it should.

Thank you for your help, as always. You are a gem, dear man. :><:
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 8:09 pm

You're English is just fine and we're looking forward to seeing some more pics of your Sim fams, Cajsa! :dancinkitty2:
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andrewplay599

andrewplay599



Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 8:41 pm

I believe you have to register to download this. I used to use it but mansions and gardens has a major malfuntion with this mod. since you don't have mansions and gardens it should'nt be a problem. I have never used mail box recolors because I heard somewere they make your game go screwy. laughin
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 9:40 pm

Oh, no wonder I couldn't figure out how where the heck the downloads were, for criminy sake. You have to register to see them! Sheesh. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 85797

You know what the scary thing about the mailbox recolors/replacements is, Andy. You don't even know you're downloading them. I think the ones I
inadvertantly downloaded had one of those six thousand letter/number long names to it. It's hard to know what the object/object recolor is then.
I'll be playing closer attention when I download lots henceforth, believe me!

Currently, I am working on another trailer park. Upon looking at yours, I've decided to have them face eachother and perhaps, add a little community area.
Nothing too fancy, mind you. I'm wanting this to be a really cheap, rundown, ramshackle trailer park (am using my new walls). So, I'm paying close attention
to the quality (or lack thereof, lol) of everything I'm putting in/on the trailers.

Wish me luck, my friend! :praying1:
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andrewplay599

andrewplay599



Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 10:52 pm

Good luck sugah. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 74257
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2009 11:30 pm

Thank you, good sir!

I think I have had some success tonight. For the last several hours, I've been working on a new & improved version of Eastside Trailer Park.
It converted nicely on the first try AND the community/apt mailbox was there when I exited, then re-entered. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 922586

I actually like this little trailer park better, Andrew. Not just cause of the layout, but also, it's priced far more like I'd hoped.
Last time, the trailers went for around $1200 a week. This time, they go from $930-$1000. That's about as cheap as rent comes in the game, right?
The placement of this park, in the industrial area near the other mobile home park, gives it the perfect ambience ... the look of the hood I'm going for, in other words.

Eastside Trailer Park - Exterior
Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 ETP2

Eastside Trailer Park - Close Up Exterior
Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 ETP4

I'm lovin' the new Ramshackled siding on these trailers. It gives it just the right, rundown look.

Eastside Trailer Park - Community Rec Area
Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 ETP7

Eastside Trailer Park - Interior
Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 ETP6


Now, keep in mind, I do not consider myself a builder like yourself by ANY means.
I'm just really needing to beef up my real estate section here and thought I'd give apts a try!
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andrewplay599

andrewplay599



Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 12:28 am

I think they look great sugah keep up the good work my friend. The secret is in the picture taking and the cc you use to make the box realistic. You know when I first start a house I always call it (The Box). I only name it when I am close to the finish of it. when are you going to post the ramshackle walls I really do like them.
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Hunter

Hunter


Age : 53

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Basic's Models New Lives   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 2:20 am

Hello All -

I've recently decided that once in awhile - at least TWICE a week Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Please-1 to play my game. NOT create - PLAY.

So I've started on Hunter's house. Now Hunter as some of you know is fabulously happy with Grey. They've been together quite a long time and I think they both deserve a real life and a beautiful home. She works hard for the money after all.

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Hunter1-17

Well I'm NOWHERE NEAR done on the house - but I've got a start.

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Snapshot_00000006_f7b5bf65

Well, I wrote a lot more and posted more pics at Basic HERE

I can't wait to actually get everything done and start playing. I can't wait for my models lives to begin. I want them to have children! I think I am true Sims addict - they're like my children. I want them to be happy and succeed. laughin
laughin
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Sugah
Admin
Sugah


Age : 65

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 9:42 am

Great minds! I have decided I am going to try and take more time to just PLAY the game, too. Good for you!
I am still just learning about Apartment Life. There is so much to discover. I've even begun reading The Sims 2 Apartment Life Guide by Prima.

Wow! That's some house you've been working on for Hunter and Grey. I can't wait to see the rest of it.

I can totally relate to you wanting your Sims to be happy and succeed.
I guess that's why I'm a stickler about having my Sims study hard to move, up, up, up in their chosen careers and always reach the top.

Happy Simming, my friend, and please feel free to keep us posted on your Sims adventures and projects here. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 344738
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Sugah
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Sugah


Age : 65

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 9:49 am

I see so many great screenshots of creations/lots out there, Andy. You are right about presentation being important.
I am trying to improve my picture taking skills to best showcase what I do.
I have great admiration for those who are able to take such awesome screenshots of their work, believe me.

I believe my Ramshackle wall set (there are only six thus far, three horizontal and three vertical) will be included in THIS weekend's update.
So stay tuned for that ... and there will definitely be more to come in different shades. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 25929

Andrew, I just want to say thank you, again, for all of your input and advice. You've been such a huge source of information and help to me.
I truly do appreciate it, good sir. Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 881668
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Ullwera

Ullwera


Age : 61

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 12:58 pm

These are very nice I like em!

Those walls are looking good on these trailers. And more shades to come!! Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 912276

Good work indeed!

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 7255
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Meilyn

Meilyn


Age : 41

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PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 1:21 pm

((Author Note:
This chapter is told in Meilyn's point of view))

Bittersweet Memories and Echos of the Past

Our vacation turned out to be a good stress release but unfortunately I, being airheaded as ever... forgot the camera so we were unable to capture any pictures. The twins are growing like weeds, but they are not the only ones growing.. my stomach is expanding as time rolls on. When I told Mirador I was pregnant again, he squealed like a small child and hugged me so tight I accidently threw up on him. The twin happened to witness this and while Sariya was disgusted and started cleaning the floor, Kali was laughing so hard tears came out of her eyes.

If she had not been my daughter... I would have knocked her into next week! But as things were, I just gave her a glare and picked up a couch pillow and first smacked Mirador across the back of the head and then launched it at Kali. Naturally being the more athletic one, she caught it with ease and set it back in its proper place, still giggling lightly as she took off upstairs before I got to the other pillow.

Time passed so quickly and before I realised it, four years had gone by. My babies were now celebrating their 15th birthday.. dear gods... teenagers. Their father was more paranoid than ever. But he would have his attention vied for by the three new additions to the family. Yes I said three. The pregnancy after the vacation brought little Celeion to us and a year later, another girl we named Akemi joined us. Now.. before I get too far ahead.. Liang and Xiang both got married! Liang had married a young elven man named Kael Dawnstrider and his sister Aislin acted as surrogate mother and they had a baby four days after I had Celeion, they named her Anza. I recently got a picture of them...here take a look!

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Ir829v

Handsome little family eh? As for Xiang, she ended up marrying the man she was nanny for, taking care of his daughter from his previous marriage. They have a baby of their own now, little Kyrianna Miyamoto! I was so happy to hear my sister had married and had herself her own baby and she agreed with me finally that children are their own blessings. I also had gotten some news around the same time that Liang became a dad that Li had been dating Aislin Dawnstrider.. whom was 6 years his senior but he was 21 so I could not really get that angry.. he was a grown man after all. Plus my brother had a good music career going now so it was not like he was hurting for money. The only reason he had not moved out of the family home yet is because our mother was falling over things and passing out and her doctor said she should not be alone when awake.

Lin, his twin sister had moved out years earlier so that left Li and Ling.. the baby born the same day as my twins and the baby that almost cost mother her life, whom was now 15 as well and I had not seen her since she was a mere toddler so when I got the wedding invite in the mail from Li, saying I was super excited was an understatement. The only reason I considered not going was Sariya. The last few months she had been dating a boy named Nealan and I did not really like the lad... call it a feeling I could not shake if you will.

I was not worried about her making a poor choice or anything like that.. it was a trust bond I had with both girls that I would not force them on birth control if they agreed to never shatter their maidenheads till marriage. I was certain that my baby was not pregnant, even if she had been throwing up for four days... Kali would have told me if she knew and I was aware those two were closer than normal siblings so I was not even thinking of that possiblity. Also there had been a bout of nasty stomach flu flying around the school so that is what I thought it was.

Leaving for the wedding under Sariya's insistance she would be alright and would rest while we were gone, I went off to the wedding. Can you imagine my surprise when I looked at my youngest sibling and seen how much she had changed.. she turned into quite a beautiful young woman.

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Tahbo3

Anyhow here are some pictures I took at the wedding.

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Needless to say it was a lavish and beautiful affair and I loved my sister in law almost instantly. Aislin and I had a lot in common and she commented on how lovely my girls were, when I showed her some pictures of my family at the reception at her insistance. She shared that she and Li were going to continue living with my parents to take care of them and being my old family home was close by, I planned to visit lots and she said she would come by to see our home next week. If I only had listened to Kali that day...

Kaliendi had grown nervous and pacing near the end of the reception and said she felt worried about Sariya, saying she called the house four times and no answer. I told her that Sariya was probably just asleep and did not hear the phone, as Sari was a very deep sleeper while Kali could be woken by the slightest shifting of movement anywhere near her. As soon as the reception was over, we all piled into the car and drove home. As we got out, I will never forget what I saw greeting me next to the driveway...

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Fyk7lf

I don't remember much of that moment, only the sounds of my own screams before the world went black. When I awoke, I was laying on the couch and Kaliendi was dabbing my forehead with a cool cloth. " Mom.. Sari.. she... she shot herself with the gun Daddy kept in his dresser for emergencies... " Kali informed me and all I could do was sob more.. oh how could this have happened. She was only ill with the flu and seemed normal and happy as ever. It was then I noticed a darker look in my daughters eyes that sent a chill down my spine. What did Kali know that I did not? I heard movement from the front room and looked out the doorway of the living room and seen several police officers speaking to Mirador, whom was doing his best to be the strong one for us all but failing miserably.

" Cause of death seemingly is a gunshot to the left temple and while we plan to have the gun dusted for prints, I am certain she shot herself." the officer said and my husband nodded numbly. As the crowd of emergency personel left, Mirador came over to me and sank to the floor beside me, holding a sheet of paper with some blood staining it. I knew what it was without him having to say a word.... it was a suicide note.

He handed it to me without a word and moved over to his cabinet and unlocked it and took out a bottle of rum and a shot glass and sat down and strated to drink it. My eyes had adusted well enough now that I could read the words there.. printed in my daughters elegant writing.

Dear Mother, Father and family,

I have been hiding a lot from you in these last few months, so much so that all this stress is killing me. If you are reading this now, then I am gone, destroyed by my own hand. I first off ask you that none of you blame yourselves, this is all my fault, my selfish choice and my doing. That being said, I wish to confess to you why this happened. I will start at the beginning. You all know I was dating a boy named Nealan. What I neglected to tell any of you was his last name... Neuman. Yes mother.. its the son of that man. I felt if I told you that you would be paranoid and forbid me to see him but goddess help me.. I could not stay away from him.. it was almost unatural how attracted to him I was but we both knew if our parents knew we were together... you and his father would seperate us so we went on with our relationship.

After weeks of pondering over it.. we came to the conclusion that the only way we could be together and no one would dare seperate us was if a child was brought into the picture. Yes... I had been pregnant all these months up till two weeks ago when I fell down the stairs at the house while you all were at the store. I claimed I went out with Nealan but in truth, he took me to the hospital where I later miscarried our child. He was so torn up about it, as was I that all our hopes went down the drain of ever being together.

We discussed if we should try it again after I healed but he knew as well as I did that it would not be possible at the very least for six weeks, so that my body could recover. It was after you all left for the wedding that I called him and we decided that since we could not be together in life, that we would at least be together in death.. so it was his idea to use the gun, I was not sure how to use it and had to take a few practice shots.. so thats why the police will likely tell you the gun had been fired four times and only one bullet would be found in my head.

After this, I sat down to write you this note and its the hardest thing I have ever had to do but I could not just die with my secrets. Please understand I did not do this to hurt any of you and while I know my apology is worthless... I offer it in any case. So here are my last words to each of you.

Kali - What can I say my dear twin that you would pay heed to now, I know you think I am a huge coward and are most likely angry at me for leaving you like this and never telling you anything. But if you knew.. what could you have done... I love you sis, I always have and always will even in the next life. I want you to take my half our our twin pendant and keep it with you always.. that way maybe I can reach out to you in your dreams, if there is something to the afterlife anyhow.

Mother and Father - You two are the reason I exsisted and I love you for the life you bore me and all the years of happiness. I could not bare you being ashamed of me, to me that was worse than death and this reason alone kept my mouth closed as to the truth of things. Especially with mother being pregnant.. how could I tell her and have to see that look on her face.. that heartbroken and disappointed look I know would be shown. I pray that she will be alright with this baby and give it a kiss for me... and use my baby things should it be a girl.. I would want it that way. Father, you have always been so strong but I think you need to realise that by doing so all the time, we all felt at times emotionally shut out.. please if anything to learn from this pain.. is to let it go... and allow the family to comfort you.

My other dear baby siblings - Please take care of mom, dad and Kali and don't you ever make my mistakes. Please use better judgement than I did and don't be a coward like me if despair ever takes you.

I love you all and I am sorry things had to end like this.

Sariya


I will never forget those words, and the note was buried with Sariya so that no one but myself Mirador and Kaliendi knew the truth of things. The other children were too young to understand and we simply told them that Sariya was sick and this is why she left us. Thank god that they were at my brother Xian's home that day and did not have to see their sister laying in a pool of her own blood.

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Kaliendi picked the headstone, the statues and the location of where on our property to bury Sariya, as they used to love playing under the apple trees. It hurt after the funeral to walk away and have to return to some simbiance of normal. But I knew that it would be impossible for things to ever be the same again, and my heart ached hardest for Kaliendi, whom felt the loss more than any of us because of the bond that twins shared. As we walked away, I heard her whisper. " Somehow today... I have to say... goodbye."
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SimEm

SimEm


Age : 44

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 1:44 pm

Aw, that was so sad. verklempt
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Sugah
Admin
Sugah


Age : 65

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 1:46 pm

Thank you so much, Ulli! Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 508493

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Smiliegenerator_test-4


Last edited by Sugah on Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SimEm

SimEm


Age : 44

Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard   Old, Archived Dead Threads Graveyard - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2009 1:51 pm

What EP lets sims recite poetry? I didn't know that was possible.

Your lots are looking cool. I like the weedy plants growing around the trailers.

I've gotten those mailbox replacements in my game by accident before. What a nuissance they are!
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